Шломо Авинери в Jerusalem Post
Feb. 14th, 2002 11:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
posichttp://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/02/14/Opinion/Opinion.43408.html
[...] never before have Israel's citizens been as terrorized and frightened as they are today. I realize neither Sharon nor Peres can, for obvious reasons, freely stroll down Jaffa Road in Jerusalem. But if they would, they might have been shocked by what they would see. No country can live with its citizens fearful of walking down the main street of its capital city. This is what is happening today in Jerusalem - and all over the country.
Неужели это правда? В остальном текст удивительно разумный:
With the ever-diminishing chances for meaningful negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, unilateral disengagement appears more and more as the only way out of the present morass. Its relevance is also underpinned by two kinds of imperatives which usually do not go hand in hand - the security imperative and moral imperative.
The security imperative is clear [...] Israel is the only country in the world that has no control over its border, because it decided not to decide were this border should be. I realize it is a tough decision, but let us recall that every person killed [...] by a suicide bomber coming from the West Bank has been killed because we could not make up our mind where the border is.
The moral imperative is similarly clear: under the present circumstances, occupation still continues in one guise or another. We impose closures, road blocks, curfews [...] continuation of the occupation fuels resistance and enmity towards Israel [...] Occupation also corrupts Israeli society, has demoralizing effects on the army and will continue to corrode the democratic core of the country's institutions and public discourse.
The details are obviously difficult and complex, but one has to realize that brute force is not an answer - and, on the other side, the Palestinians are not ready for a historic compromise. Israel is left alone: we, Israel's citizens, will have to come up with an answer [...] Only a combination of hard-headed realism with an understanding of the grave moral dangers to the country from the continuation of the present unwinnable war can provide an answer.
[...] never before have Israel's citizens been as terrorized and frightened as they are today. I realize neither Sharon nor Peres can, for obvious reasons, freely stroll down Jaffa Road in Jerusalem. But if they would, they might have been shocked by what they would see. No country can live with its citizens fearful of walking down the main street of its capital city. This is what is happening today in Jerusalem - and all over the country.
Неужели это правда? В остальном текст удивительно разумный:
With the ever-diminishing chances for meaningful negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, unilateral disengagement appears more and more as the only way out of the present morass. Its relevance is also underpinned by two kinds of imperatives which usually do not go hand in hand - the security imperative and moral imperative.
The security imperative is clear [...] Israel is the only country in the world that has no control over its border, because it decided not to decide were this border should be. I realize it is a tough decision, but let us recall that every person killed [...] by a suicide bomber coming from the West Bank has been killed because we could not make up our mind where the border is.
The moral imperative is similarly clear: under the present circumstances, occupation still continues in one guise or another. We impose closures, road blocks, curfews [...] continuation of the occupation fuels resistance and enmity towards Israel [...] Occupation also corrupts Israeli society, has demoralizing effects on the army and will continue to corrode the democratic core of the country's institutions and public discourse.
The details are obviously difficult and complex, but one has to realize that brute force is not an answer - and, on the other side, the Palestinians are not ready for a historic compromise. Israel is left alone: we, Israel's citizens, will have to come up with an answer [...] Only a combination of hard-headed realism with an understanding of the grave moral dangers to the country from the continuation of the present unwinnable war can provide an answer.
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no subject
Date: 2002-02-14 02:24 pm (UTC)ß íå áîþñü õîäèòü ïî óë. ßôî, êîòîðàÿ îò ìåíÿ â äâóõ øàãàõ. Íî, íåñîìíåííî, åñòü íåìàëî òàêèõ, êòî áîèòñÿ. Ìàãàçèíû òàì ïîòåðÿëè ëüâèíóþ äîëþ áèçíåñà çà ïîñëåäíèå íåñêîëüêî ìåñÿöåâ.
Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 02:29 pm (UTC)Ãîâîðÿ ÿçûêîì öèôð, ïðîáëåìó ìîæíî ïðåäñòàâèòü òàê. Èç âñåõ òåððèòîðèé, ïîïàâøèõ ïîä åãî êîíòðîëü â 1967 ãîäó, Èçðàèëü 75% óæå îòäàë. Ïðàâûå ãîòîâû îòäàòü 80% â îáìåí íà ïðî÷íûé ìèð. Ëåâûå, â çàâèñèìîñòè îò ãðàäóñà, ãîòîâû îòäàòü 95, 100 èëè 110% (ëèêâèäàöèÿ åâðåéñêèõ ïîñåëåíèé, ñîçäàííûõ â 1920-å ãîäû, èñêóññòâåííîå ðàñøèðåíèå àðàáñêîãî ïðèñóòñòâèÿ â åâðåéñêèõ ÷àñòÿõ Èåðóñàëèìà ïîä ñòîëèöó Ôàëÿñòûí). Áåäà, îäíàêî, ñîñòîèò â òîì, ÷òî ñ àðàáñêîé ñòîðîíû 110% - ýòî ìèíèìàëüíîå òðåáîâàíèå, íèêòî è íèêîãäà â ïàëåñòèíñêîì ëàãåðå íå áóäåò îáñóæäàòü äàæå âîçìîæíîñòü îáñóæäåíèÿ 109%. Ïîýòîìó âíóòðèèçðàèëüñêàÿ ðàñïðÿ íà òåìó "80 èëè 95?" ïîïðîñòó íåàêòóàëüíà. Äàéòå Àâèíåðè âëàñòü, îí ýâàêóèðóåò òå ïîñåëåíèÿ, êîòîðûå, ñ åãî òî÷êè çðåíèÿ, íå ñòðàòåãè÷íû, à ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ àðàáîâ âñå ýòè óñòóïêè - óçîðû íà ãîâíå. Òàì ñëîâà "êîìïðîìèññ" âîîáùå íåò â ëåêñèêîíå. Ïîýòîìó âñå òàíöû èçðàèëüñêèõ ëåâûõ - Ðàáèíà, Ïåðåñà, Áàðàêà - ïî ñàìîâíóøåíèþ "íó, åùå êóñî÷åê îòðåæåì, íàì íå áóäåò áîëüíî" - íè ðàçó íå áûëè îöåíåíû èëè îäîáðåíû âòîðîé ñòîðîíîé.
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Date: 2002-02-14 02:34 pm (UTC)Ñêàæèòå, êòî òàêîé ýòîò Øëîìî Àâèíåðè? ×òî îí ðàíüøå ãîâîðèë?
Re:
Date: 2002-02-14 02:44 pm (UTC)Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 02:59 pm (UTC)ß áû ïîøåë äàëüøå è ñêàçàë, ÷òî êàê òîëüêî èçðàèëüòÿíå ïåðåñòàíóò îãðàíè÷èâàòü ñâîáîäû æèòåëåé òåððèòîðèé, êîíòðîëèðîâàòü äâèæåíèå ÷åðåç âíåøíèå ãðàíèöû è ò.ä., îíè ñìîãóò ñíÿòü ñ ñåáÿ îòâåòñòâåííîñòü çà èõ âûæèâàíèå â ýêîíîìè÷åñêîì ñìûñëå. Ìîæíî áóäåò ïðîñòî ïðåêðàòèòü âïóñêàòü èõ íà ðàáîòó â Èçðàèëü -- íå âðåìåííî, à íàâñåãäà, áåçóñëîâíî è îäíîçíà÷íî.
Ýòî ïîñòàâèò æèòåëåé òåððèòîðèé ïåðåä íåîáõîäèìîñòüþ ëèáî ïîñòðîèòü ñîáñòâåííóþ îòíîñèòåëüíî íåçàâèñèìóþ ýêîíîìèêó, ïðîìûøëåííîñòü, ëèáî ðàçúåõàòüñÿ ïî äðóãèì ñòðàíàì, êîòîðûå ñîãëàñÿòñÿ èõ âïóñòèòü.  ïåðâîì ñëó÷àå ñèëà èõ çàâèñòè ê èçðàèëüòÿíàì óìåíüøèòñÿ, âî âòîðîì ñëó÷àå ðàññòîÿíèå îò íèõ äî Èçðàèëÿ óâåëè÷èòñÿ...
Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 02:59 pm (UTC)Òàê è æèâ¸ì.
Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 03:01 pm (UTC)Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 03:06 pm (UTC)Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 03:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-02-14 03:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-02-14 03:44 pm (UTC)À òî ÷òî òàì âîçìîæíî ìû ñìîæåì ãðàíèöû ëó÷øå îõðàíÿòü (ãîâîðÿò ïðàâûå) ýòî åù¸ áàáóøêà íàäâîå ñêàçàëà.  êîíöå êîíöîâ, áûëè æå òåðàêòû â Èçðàèëå è äî 67-ãî. Ò.å. îïÿòü-òàêè ïîëó÷àåòñÿ ÷òî ìû îòäàåì ìíîãî íè çà ÷òî.
Òàê ÷òî ïðàâûå íà ýòî íå ñîãëàñÿòñÿ.
Ëåâûå ìíîãèå ê ýòîìó ðåøåíèþ ñêëîíÿþòñÿ, íî îíî äàëåêî íå òàê ïîïóëÿðíî, êàê ìîæåò ïîêàçàòüñÿ â ñâÿçè ñ øóìîì âîêðóã íå íåãî.
no subject
Date: 2002-02-14 04:10 pm (UTC)Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 05:32 pm (UTC)Ìîæåò, íå ñòðàòåãèÿ, íî íåêàÿ ëèíèÿ, êîòîðóþ îí óïðÿìî ïûòàëñÿ ãíóòü. À íûíåøíåå ïðàâèòåëüñòâî, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, äåëàåò èìåííî ýòî:***îñîçíàííî æèòü ñåãîäíÿøíèì äíåì è ðóêîâîäñòâîâàòüñÿ ñåãîäíÿøíèìè èíòåðåñàìè***
Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 06:04 pm (UTC)Äî ýòîãî áûëî ñîâñåì íàîáîðîò: ëåâûå ïëîòíî ñèäåëè íà òåððèòîðèÿõ è îñíîâûâàëè òàì ïîñåëåíèÿ, à ïðàâûå ïîäïèñûâàëè ìèð ñ Åãèïòîì (øàã, â êîòîðûé íèêòî íå âåðèë äî òîãî, êàê ýòî ñëó÷èëîñü, êñòàòè).
Òàê ÷òî îòíþäü íå îñîáåííîñòè èäåîëîãèè, ïðîñòî íåêàÿ êîíüþíêòóðà, äëÿùàÿñÿ îêîëî 10 ëåò.
À âîò íè÷åãîíåäåëàíèå ïðèâåëî íàñ, êñòàòè, ê ïåðâîé èíòèôàäå, êîòîðàÿ áûëà îòíþäü íå ñëàäêîé.
"Íå ìîæåò áûòü íèêàêîé ñòðàòåãèè" - ýòî ñàìîóáèéñòâåííàÿ íà ìîé âçãëÿä ôîðìóëà.
Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 06:16 pm (UTC)Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 06:32 pm (UTC)çàõâàò òåððèòîðèè è ñîçäàíèå ñòðàòåãè÷åñêîãî áóôåðà
òîëüêî ýòî âñëóõ íå î÷åíü ãîâîðÿò, ïîòîìó ÷òî çâó÷èò öèíè÷íî
íî ïðàâèëüíàÿ ïîëèòèêà - îíà ïðàêòè÷åñêè âñåãäà î÷åíü öèíè÷íà
êñòàòè, äëÿ ëåâûõ åñòü ñòîëü æå ëîã÷èíîå îáüÿñíåíèå: ïîñåëåíèÿ íàäî óíèòîæèòü, ïîòîìó ÷òî ýòî îêêóïàöèÿ è íàðóøåíèå ïðàâ ÷åëîâåêà, à ýòî âñåãäà ïëîõî. Ðàçóìååòñÿ îòíþäü íå âñå ëåâûå îäèíàêîâû, è òàêîâà òî÷êà çðåíèÿ òîëüêî ÷àñòè èç íèõ, íåêîòîðûå ðåàëüíî äóìàþò, ÷òî ýòî ïîìîæåò - â îñíîâíîì òå, êòî ñåé÷àñ âûñòóïàåò çà Çàáîð.
Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 06:46 pm (UTC)Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 09:43 pm (UTC)Âîò âåäü, à âñåãäà äåëàëè èìåííî òàê. Ñ÷èòàëîñü, ÷òî àðìåéñêèé ëàãåðü ïîñòîÿë è óøåë, à âîò ïîñåëåíöû íèêóäà íå äåíóòñÿ. Äà õîòü íà ðóññêîå êàçà÷åñòâî ïîñìîòðèòå.
no subject
Date: 2002-02-14 09:46 pm (UTC)è åñëè ëåâèçíà èçðàèëüñêîãî ïðîôåññîðà î÷åâèäíà, òî Adam Young íà òàêóþ õàðàêòåðèñòèêó îáèäåëñÿ áû, ïîëàãàþ
Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 09:47 pm (UTC)Âî-âòîðûõ, â Èçðàèëå ïðèíÿòî ïîä ïóëè ñîëäàò ïîäñòàâëÿòü, à íå ïîñåëåíöåâ. Ïî êðàéíåé ìåðå, áûëî ïðèíÿòî.
Â-òðåòüèõ, Æåíåâñêàÿ êîíâåíöèÿ íåìíîãî âñ¸-òàêè èçìåíèëà ñèòóàöèþ, äà.
Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-14 11:37 pm (UTC)Âî-âòîðûõ, âûñîêèå ïðèíöèïû ãóìàííîñòè ê ðåàëüíîé èñòîðèè è ïîëèòèêå íå èìåþò îòíîøåíèÿ.
Ñ ïîñåëåíöàìè ðàáîòàåò âåäü è òàêîå ðàññóæäåíèå - ñåé÷àñ ó íàñ ìèð, ìû èõ ïîñåëèì. À åñëè ÷òî - âñå áóäóò èõ çàùèùàòü, âåäü ýòî æåíùèíû è äåòè.
 îáùåì, íèêàêîé æåíåâñêîé êîíâåíöèè íå îòìåíèòü ìàêñèìó - ÷òîáû çåìëÿ ñòàëà ñâîåé, â íåå íàäî âðàñòè. Âîåííûå äëÿ ýòîãî íå ïîäõîäÿò. À ñàìûå ïðî÷íûå ñòåíû âñåãäà ñòðîÿòñÿ èç òåë.
Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-15 12:47 am (UTC)Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-15 01:18 am (UTC)> ñòðåìëåíèå ëåâûõ ðåøèòü âñ¸ îäíèì ìàõîì...
Ýòî íå ãëàâíîå. Áåäà ñîñòîèò â òîì, ÷òî ëåâûå èñêðåííå âåðÿò â ñâîè "ñòðàòåãè÷åñêèå" ñõåìû, à ýòè ñõåìû, ìåæäó òåì, îñíîâàíû íà ìåõàíè÷åñêîì îòîæäåñòâëåíèè àðàáñêîãî è åâðåéñêîãî âçãëÿäîâ íà ìèð: ýòèêè, òðàäèöèé, óðîâíÿ ïðàâîâîãî ñîçíàíèÿ, etc. Îòñþäà è íåâîçìîæíîñòü âûñòðîèòü êîððåêòíóþ ñòðàòåãèþ ñëåâà.
> íè÷åãîíåäåëàíèå ïðèâåëî íàñ, êñòàòè, ê ïåðâîé èíòèôàäå...
Êòî ãîâîðèë î "íè÷åãîíåäåëàíèè"? Ñîâåðøåííî ðàçíûå âåùè.
> "Íå ìîæåò áûòü íèêàêîé ñòðàòåãèè" - ýòî ñàìîóáèéñòâåííàÿ íà ìîé âçãëÿä ôîðìóëà.
Ëþáàÿ äðóãàÿ ïðåâðàùàåò Èçðàèëü â çàëîæíèêà àðàáñêîãî ìèðà è ëåâîé ïðîïàãàíäû (êàê âíóòðåííåé, òàê è âíåøíåé), è ëèøàåò ñòðàíó ïðîñòîðà äëÿ îïåðàòèâíîãî ìàíåâðà. Ýòî óæå ìíîãî ðàç ïðîõîäèëè; ïîðà âûâîäû äåëàòü.
Âîçìîæíî.
Date: 2002-02-15 04:33 am (UTC)È åùå ìíå êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî ýòî - ÷óòü ëè íå ãëàâíîå.
È ÷òî ïîëèòèêà, êàê áû ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå íè îòäàâàëî ìàðêñèçìîì, çàíèìàåò âåñüìà ïîä÷èíåííîå ïîëîæåíèå ïî îòíîøåíèþ ê ýêîíîìèêå.
Äðóãèìè ñëîâàìè, áóäü ìû â äâà ðàçà áîãà÷å, ïëåâàòü íàì áûëî áû íà àðàáîâ.
Îäèí ìîé êîëëåãà ãîâîðèò: "Ïðîáëåìà, êîòîðóþ ìîãóò ðåøèòü äåíüãè - ýòî íå ïðîáëåìà.
ß òîæå îòíîøóñü ê Íåòàíèÿãó ñ íåêîòîðûì íåäîâåðèåì (à êàê èíà÷å ìîæíî îòíîñèòüñÿ ê ïîëèòèêó?), íî îòäàþ åìó äîëæíîå çà òî, ÷òî îí óñïåë ñäåëàòü â îáëàñòè ëèáåðàëèçàöèè ýêîíîìèêè - è î÷åíü ñîæàëåþ, ÷òî ó íåãî áûëî òàê ìàëî âðåìåíè íà ýòî.
Re: Îíî î÷åíü ëåâîå, ýòî ðàññóæäåíèå....
Date: 2002-02-15 06:43 am (UTC)Ïîëèòèêà è ìîðàëü - âåùè íåñîâìåñòèìûå. Êðîìå òîãî, ïîä ïóëè èõ íèêòî íå ïîäñòàâëÿë, ïîêà íàøè ëåâûå äðóçüÿ íå ðàçäàëè áàíäèòàì ýòè ñàìûå ïóëè. Îïÿòü æå, ïåðåä ïîñåëåíöàìè íàõîäÿòñÿ ñîëäàòû. Êñòàòè, âûðàæåíèÿ ÍÀÕÀËÜ è "õîìà ó ìèãäàëü" âàì ÷òî-òî ãîâîðÿò? Ïðî ïîëèòèêó îñíîâàíèÿ ïîñåëåíèé â ñòðàòåãè÷åñêèõ òî÷êàõ ñëûøàëè? Áóôåð æå íå îáÿçàí áûòü îäèí, êàê ïðàâèëî, èõ ìíîãî. À ïðî îñòàëüíîå Òîøèê ðàññêàçàë. Óâû, íî â ïîëèòèêå ïî-ïðåæíåìó íåò çàêîíîâ, êðîìå çàêîíà äæóíãëåé. Âñÿêèå êîíâåíöèè - ýòî âñåãî ëèøü åùå îäíà äóáèíêà, êîòîðîé ìîæíî ìîëîòèòü ïðîòèâíèêà, êîãäà ïðèäåòñÿ. Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, ñåé÷àñ ýòîé äóáèíêîé ìîëîòÿò â îñíîâíîì Èçðàèëü, õîòÿ, êàê ëþáàÿ ïðèëè÷íàÿ äóáèíêà, îíà ìîæåò õîäèòü ïî ÷üåé óãîäíî ñïèíå.
Re: Âîçìîæíî.
Date: 2002-02-15 08:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-02-15 08:57 am (UTC)Re: Âîçìîæíî.
Date: 2002-02-15 12:46 pm (UTC)À âûáîð... âûáîðà íåò :-)
no subject
Date: 2002-02-17 02:28 am (UTC)Re:
Date: 2002-02-17 05:05 am (UTC)